Sorry but I’m old, retired from 40 years in social science research. Grad studies back in the 70’s & 80’s. Don’t really know or read recent stuff and queer theory anymore so don’t know how I could be clouded by it? Not even Butler (who I heard is convoluted, hard to read?) Except you guys a little bit on twitter & youtube! & jk rowling (but haven’t read harry potter). but the idea of innate, born this way, came about in the 80’s, which I totally couldn’t get on. i mean look at the animal world. dolphins being gay quite often! it’s mammalian behavior. but I’m at the end of days for me, not many years left. so glad I can blurt out my ideas to someone! thanks!
I’d be interested in the studies you’re basing this ‘knowledge’ on. I mean I’ve heard anecdotal stories of kids or parents of kids saying the kid, early on, thought they were or wanted to be the opposite sex. And I’d accept that in these (rare? very rare?) instances maybe the kid is more likely to end up gay. There are many of us who had no such notion or belief & still end up gay! People wonder why there’s such a recent rash of girls wanting conversion. Well, given male privilege, rigid sex role stereotypes, and how awful puberty & menstruation can be for girls (personal experience) heck yeah (though changing’s really not that simple, huh?) I commend you for choosing to work with & for these kids. I think it’s important to get one’s thinking straight and I’m of the persuasion there really is no ‘homosexual,’ just behaviors and preferences (cf Foucault).
Your thinking is completely clouded by recent history and queer theory, not science. There’s decades of research on sexual orientation. If your inquiry is genuine, I’d suggest you do your own homework. There’s a well known correlation between childhood gender dysphoria and later life homosexuality. It’s a more common experience for gay men than lesbians but does exist in both sexes. There are 13 studies that followed the kids long term and found that most of those kids dropped the belief they were the opposite sex once their sexuality matured. They’re overwhelmingly gay.
What Stoller’s model helps us to understand is how/why this happens in the developmental psychology of gay kids. It’s very important that we retain the clinical framework if we’re ever going to get back to doing sound clinical work with these kids again.
I’m not even sure what “cross-sex identification” is and, for that matter, how often does this occur in kids that grow up ‘straight’? Perhaps it is common to many? But, yeah, any young person who goes (or is sent) to a clinician for guidance over whatever disturbs them should get compassionate care. Medicalizing kids (whether hormones or Ritalin or antidepressants, etc.) is perhaps overdone? Met someone in the 80’s who felt they were “a gay man in a woman’s body”. Could only say, well sometimes we have to accept ourselves but you do you.
We already know, and have for decades, that the early childhood belief that we are in fact the opposite sex, which starts around age 2-3, is highly correlated with homosexuality. It’s a developmental stage of homosexuality that typically resolves in adolescence. What’s happening now with kids is an unrelated phenomenon muddying the waters.
Interesting ideas. Wasn’t sure what you meant by “the homosexual childhood incongruence that persists into adulthood.” Do you mean recollections people have of early preferences for same sex friends or non-gender conforming play (e.g. girls liking toy trucks or boys with dolls)? Could be selective recall to fit the narrative? There are strong societal influences at work too (dolls & trucks are differentially pushed on us).
Then again, you’re introducing me to biological theories I tend not to think about (had to google what the heck ‘DSD’ is). So thanks for putting your stuff out there.
Some degree of cross-sex identification is a fairly common pre gay experience and seen as a developmental aspect of homosexuality. That typically resolves in puberty with sexual awakening.
It’s important to retain this knowledge, in order to do good clinical work. Gay and lesbian kids are being transed.
Sorry but I’m old, retired from 40 years in social science research. Grad studies back in the 70’s & 80’s. Don’t really know or read recent stuff and queer theory anymore so don’t know how I could be clouded by it? Not even Butler (who I heard is convoluted, hard to read?) Except you guys a little bit on twitter & youtube! & jk rowling (but haven’t read harry potter). but the idea of innate, born this way, came about in the 80’s, which I totally couldn’t get on. i mean look at the animal world. dolphins being gay quite often! it’s mammalian behavior. but I’m at the end of days for me, not many years left. so glad I can blurt out my ideas to someone! thanks!
I’d be interested in the studies you’re basing this ‘knowledge’ on. I mean I’ve heard anecdotal stories of kids or parents of kids saying the kid, early on, thought they were or wanted to be the opposite sex. And I’d accept that in these (rare? very rare?) instances maybe the kid is more likely to end up gay. There are many of us who had no such notion or belief & still end up gay! People wonder why there’s such a recent rash of girls wanting conversion. Well, given male privilege, rigid sex role stereotypes, and how awful puberty & menstruation can be for girls (personal experience) heck yeah (though changing’s really not that simple, huh?) I commend you for choosing to work with & for these kids. I think it’s important to get one’s thinking straight and I’m of the persuasion there really is no ‘homosexual,’ just behaviors and preferences (cf Foucault).
Your thinking is completely clouded by recent history and queer theory, not science. There’s decades of research on sexual orientation. If your inquiry is genuine, I’d suggest you do your own homework. There’s a well known correlation between childhood gender dysphoria and later life homosexuality. It’s a more common experience for gay men than lesbians but does exist in both sexes. There are 13 studies that followed the kids long term and found that most of those kids dropped the belief they were the opposite sex once their sexuality matured. They’re overwhelmingly gay.
What Stoller’s model helps us to understand is how/why this happens in the developmental psychology of gay kids. It’s very important that we retain the clinical framework if we’re ever going to get back to doing sound clinical work with these kids again.
I’m not even sure what “cross-sex identification” is and, for that matter, how often does this occur in kids that grow up ‘straight’? Perhaps it is common to many? But, yeah, any young person who goes (or is sent) to a clinician for guidance over whatever disturbs them should get compassionate care. Medicalizing kids (whether hormones or Ritalin or antidepressants, etc.) is perhaps overdone? Met someone in the 80’s who felt they were “a gay man in a woman’s body”. Could only say, well sometimes we have to accept ourselves but you do you.
We already know, and have for decades, that the early childhood belief that we are in fact the opposite sex, which starts around age 2-3, is highly correlated with homosexuality. It’s a developmental stage of homosexuality that typically resolves in adolescence. What’s happening now with kids is an unrelated phenomenon muddying the waters.
Interesting ideas. Wasn’t sure what you meant by “the homosexual childhood incongruence that persists into adulthood.” Do you mean recollections people have of early preferences for same sex friends or non-gender conforming play (e.g. girls liking toy trucks or boys with dolls)? Could be selective recall to fit the narrative? There are strong societal influences at work too (dolls & trucks are differentially pushed on us).
Then again, you’re introducing me to biological theories I tend not to think about (had to google what the heck ‘DSD’ is). So thanks for putting your stuff out there.
Some degree of cross-sex identification is a fairly common pre gay experience and seen as a developmental aspect of homosexuality. That typically resolves in puberty with sexual awakening.
It’s important to retain this knowledge, in order to do good clinical work. Gay and lesbian kids are being transed.